1 00:00:12,049 --> 00:00:09,259 today we welcome back to skeptic Oh 2 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:12,059 one of your favorite guests and one of 3 00:00:15,799 --> 00:00:12,929 mine as well 4 00:00:18,620 --> 00:00:15,809 philosopher author blogger dr. Bernardo 5 00:00:21,260 --> 00:00:18,630 Kastrup is here he's got a new book a 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:21,270 fascinating new book called more than 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:24,570 allegory on religious myth truth and 8 00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:25,490 belief 9 00:00:34,190 --> 00:00:30,510 so dr. Bernardo Kastrup is warming up to 10 00:00:36,950 --> 00:00:34,200 religion I bet you didn't expect to hear 11 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:36,960 that but we will hear it we will hear it 12 00:00:40,940 --> 00:00:39,210 here on skeptic Co Bernardo it's great 13 00:00:42,860 --> 00:00:40,950 having you back and thanks so much for 14 00:00:45,529 --> 00:00:42,870 joining me it's great to be here again 15 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:45,539 Alex thanks for having me so this is 16 00:00:50,150 --> 00:00:48,570 quite a fascinating book and as we were 17 00:00:52,369 --> 00:00:50,160 just chatting about a minute ago and 18 00:00:54,439 --> 00:00:52,379 we've talked about it actually is 19 00:00:58,279 --> 00:00:54,449 another Skype conversation that we 20 00:01:00,380 --> 00:00:58,289 didn't record there's so many points 21 00:01:02,299 --> 00:01:00,390 that intersect with the work that you've 22 00:01:04,340 --> 00:01:02,309 done for a long time and some of the 23 00:01:07,010 --> 00:01:04,350 work that that I've done here on skeptic 24 00:01:08,660 --> 00:01:07,020 oh this is such an important and 25 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:08,670 interesting topic I know we're gonna 26 00:01:13,130 --> 00:01:10,530 have a lot of fun with it and I hope 27 00:01:15,830 --> 00:01:13,140 listeners enjoy this dialogue as much as 28 00:01:18,499 --> 00:01:15,840 I think that I will so let's dive right 29 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:18,509 into it tell us about this book and the 30 00:01:23,469 --> 00:01:21,450 basic premise behind it it's an 31 00:01:26,990 --> 00:01:23,479 exploration of religion and what value 32 00:01:29,179 --> 00:01:27,000 it may have for us individually and for 33 00:01:30,770 --> 00:01:29,189 society at large and one of the key 34 00:01:33,770 --> 00:01:30,780 questions that I look into in the book 35 00:01:35,270 --> 00:01:33,780 is is there any truth value to religion 36 00:01:37,399 --> 00:01:35,280 is there any way in which religion 37 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:37,409 expresses truth at some level in some 38 00:01:42,289 --> 00:01:39,810 form because if there isn't then there 39 00:01:45,050 --> 00:01:42,299 is no point anyway I think there is and 40 00:01:46,870 --> 00:01:45,060 that's one of the things I love to to 41 00:01:50,899 --> 00:01:46,880 explore in the book 42 00:01:54,740 --> 00:01:50,909 okay so explore that further because I 43 00:01:58,880 --> 00:01:54,750 think we can hear in there the implied 44 00:02:02,270 --> 00:01:58,890 assumption that religion isn't being 45 00:02:07,150 --> 00:02:02,280 taken seriously and needs to be from a 46 00:02:09,859 --> 00:02:07,160 philosophical or a reason based 47 00:02:11,210 --> 00:02:09,869 standpoint be propped up a little bit I 48 00:02:13,860 --> 00:02:11,220 mean that's kind of what I'm hearing 49 00:02:17,059 --> 00:02:13,870 there you do talk you do frame this 50 00:02:19,500 --> 00:02:17,069 in terms of a cultural issue don't you 51 00:02:23,850 --> 00:02:19,510 yeah I mean religion has been with us 52 00:02:26,670 --> 00:02:23,860 since very early times in the evolution 53 00:02:29,690 --> 00:02:26,680 of our species since we began to think 54 00:02:32,970 --> 00:02:29,700 symbolically religion has been with us 55 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:32,980 thousands and thousands of years to deny 56 00:02:38,670 --> 00:02:35,410 religion at least as a very strong 57 00:02:41,490 --> 00:02:38,680 psychosocial phenomenon is naive and to 58 00:02:43,850 --> 00:02:41,500 say that this this amazing phenomenon is 59 00:02:46,350 --> 00:02:43,860 purely delusion I think there is a 60 00:02:49,350 --> 00:02:46,360 Eurail very easy way out 61 00:02:51,420 --> 00:02:49,360 it's a glances over all the important 62 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:51,430 issues here and I think it's time that 63 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:53,650 we reviewed it and and and looked more 64 00:02:57,449 --> 00:02:56,170 seriously into it and legitimized it in 65 00:02:59,789 --> 00:02:57,459 a way okay 66 00:03:03,600 --> 00:02:59,799 and I grant you that let me start by 67 00:03:07,319 --> 00:03:03,610 asking you this do you think that this 68 00:03:11,910 --> 00:03:07,329 culture war issue regarding religion is 69 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:11,920 I don't know where it was ten years ago 70 00:03:17,449 --> 00:03:14,530 I mean I push this sometimes and people 71 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:17,459 push back and I've started to hear maybe 72 00:03:20,819 --> 00:03:20,170 the truth in their pushback and saying 73 00:03:23,759 --> 00:03:20,829 you know what 74 00:03:26,390 --> 00:03:23,769 that's we've moved on you know Richard 75 00:03:30,330 --> 00:03:26,400 Dawkins isn't a hot topic anymore 76 00:03:34,140 --> 00:03:30,340 atheists seem more and more silly - more 77 00:03:36,809 --> 00:03:34,150 and more people do we need to move on 78 00:03:39,979 --> 00:03:36,819 have we moved on as a society as a 79 00:03:43,710 --> 00:03:39,989 culture a little bit past this Oh 80 00:03:46,140 --> 00:03:43,720 religion is stupid kind of thing I think 81 00:03:47,909 --> 00:03:46,150 there are fashions and maybe the fashion 82 00:03:50,699 --> 00:03:47,919 has changed and maybe it's no longer 83 00:03:53,159 --> 00:03:50,709 fashion to bash religion like Richard 84 00:03:55,020 --> 00:03:53,169 Dawkins and others used to do and still 85 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:55,030 do by the way but maybe they are not 86 00:04:00,330 --> 00:03:57,130 taken anymore as seriously as they were 87 00:04:04,110 --> 00:04:00,340 taken before but the question is aside 88 00:04:06,900 --> 00:04:04,120 from the fashion aside from the the 89 00:04:09,750 --> 00:04:06,910 outspoken militant cultural dialogue 90 00:04:12,569 --> 00:04:09,760 what about our personal relationship 91 00:04:15,690 --> 00:04:12,579 with religion I think that has not been 92 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:15,700 reviewed sufficiently I think there is a 93 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:18,810 much faster much broader advancement of 94 00:04:25,350 --> 00:04:22,050 of a kind of aloofness towards religion 95 00:04:27,170 --> 00:04:25,360 than the advancement of fundamentalism I 96 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:27,180 think people are becoming more 97 00:04:31,700 --> 00:04:29,250 more disconnected from these primordial 98 00:04:34,189 --> 00:04:31,710 religious impulse that belongs in a 99 00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:34,199 human race and and I think that is much 100 00:04:39,650 --> 00:04:35,910 more worrying than whatever fashion 101 00:04:42,020 --> 00:04:39,660 whatever cultural militant debate there 102 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:42,030 might be or not be going on right now 103 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:43,770 it's about our in their lives at the end 104 00:04:48,590 --> 00:04:45,690 of the day and what I see is that people 105 00:04:50,990 --> 00:04:48,600 are losing more and more their sense of 106 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:51,000 meaning and transcendence and these are 107 00:04:55,219 --> 00:04:53,490 the things we get from a healthy 108 00:05:01,629 --> 00:04:55,229 relationship with religious myths 109 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:01,639 I keep hearing though a little bit of 110 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:04,650 condescending tone it's like yes let's 111 00:05:08,950 --> 00:05:07,050 examine it of course it's not real of 112 00:05:11,810 --> 00:05:08,960 course it's not true of course it's a 113 00:05:15,350 --> 00:05:11,820 psychosocial Philon phenomena that 114 00:05:21,260 --> 00:05:15,360 comforts you at night but what but but 115 00:05:24,830 --> 00:05:21,270 but but who really is interested in that 116 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:24,840 kind of re-examination of religion 117 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:26,970 religious people aren't religious people 118 00:05:32,570 --> 00:05:30,930 are I'm fine this belief nurtures me in 119 00:05:35,029 --> 00:05:32,580 a way that's much deeper than what 120 00:05:37,820 --> 00:05:35,039 you're talking about and non-religious 121 00:05:41,719 --> 00:05:37,830 people other than just being nice 122 00:05:43,700 --> 00:05:41,729 politically correct socially kind what 123 00:05:46,820 --> 00:05:43,710 interest do they have in a deeper 124 00:05:49,670 --> 00:05:46,830 re-examination of that I think you just 125 00:05:51,980 --> 00:05:49,680 touched on a key point I think nobody 126 00:05:54,170 --> 00:05:51,990 should be interested in religion just 127 00:05:55,939 --> 00:05:54,180 because it comforts us at night because 128 00:05:57,379 --> 00:05:55,949 the moment you're interested in religion 129 00:05:58,969 --> 00:05:57,389 for that reason alone it no longer 130 00:06:01,189 --> 00:05:58,979 comforts you because it isn't true 131 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:01,199 anymore it becomes a matter of of 132 00:06:06,290 --> 00:06:03,930 convenience as sort of a little tale we 133 00:06:09,170 --> 00:06:06,300 tell ourselves in order to reach a 134 00:06:11,589 --> 00:06:09,180 comfort level that's not what I'm saying 135 00:06:15,439 --> 00:06:11,599 what I'm putting forward is that 136 00:06:21,529 --> 00:06:15,449 authentic religious myths legitimized by 137 00:06:25,790 --> 00:06:21,539 time and history point to something that 138 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:25,800 is true not only comforting but true to 139 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:29,130 truth about reality about nature about 140 00:06:34,550 --> 00:06:32,570 our condition in nature that cannot be 141 00:06:38,209 --> 00:06:34,560 literally explained 142 00:06:40,119 --> 00:06:38,219 according to linear logic in a linear 143 00:06:41,589 --> 00:06:40,129 rational way 144 00:06:44,199 --> 00:06:41,599 there is no reason to believe that the 145 00:06:46,779 --> 00:06:44,209 human intellect has evolved to grasp 146 00:06:49,659 --> 00:06:46,789 linearly all relevant truths about 147 00:06:52,149 --> 00:06:49,669 reality yet we have a part of our minds 148 00:06:53,889 --> 00:06:52,159 which that psychologist would call the 149 00:06:56,919 --> 00:06:53,899 unconscious mind I prefer to call the 150 00:06:59,049 --> 00:06:56,929 obfuscated mind which is not constrained 151 00:07:02,109 --> 00:06:59,059 by the linear constraints of the 152 00:07:03,850 --> 00:07:02,119 intellect and history shows us that this 153 00:07:06,369 --> 00:07:03,860 part of our minds has been in contact 154 00:07:08,139 --> 00:07:06,379 with primordial truths about reality 155 00:07:10,929 --> 00:07:08,149 ineffable truths that cannot be put in 156 00:07:13,089 --> 00:07:10,939 words that cannot be made sense of sense 157 00:07:15,790 --> 00:07:13,099 of according to linear logic and which 158 00:07:17,919 --> 00:07:15,800 nonetheless are true in our essential 159 00:07:19,809 --> 00:07:17,929 aspects of nature and I think that is 160 00:07:23,589 --> 00:07:19,819 the value of religion it's a symbolic 161 00:07:25,989 --> 00:07:23,599 way of pointing at these actual truths 162 00:07:29,799 --> 00:07:25,999 not only comforting fairy tales but 163 00:07:31,749 --> 00:07:29,809 actual truths they are not literal they 164 00:07:34,839 --> 00:07:31,759 a lot they are not linear but they are 165 00:07:37,449 --> 00:07:34,849 true and our ability to relate to 166 00:07:39,669 --> 00:07:37,459 religious myths at an emotional non 167 00:07:41,439 --> 00:07:39,679 intellectual level that's what we've 168 00:07:43,749 --> 00:07:41,449 been losing we think that they intellect 169 00:07:45,879 --> 00:07:43,759 either can understand it or it isn't 170 00:07:47,769 --> 00:07:45,889 true hey there is something there's a 171 00:07:49,779 --> 00:07:47,779 lot out there that is true and cannot be 172 00:07:51,609 --> 00:07:49,789 made sense of intellectually and by 173 00:07:53,319 --> 00:07:51,619 discarding that we are losing our 174 00:07:56,019 --> 00:07:53,329 connection with transcendence and 175 00:07:59,379 --> 00:07:56,029 meaning gives an example because again 176 00:08:01,569 --> 00:07:59,389 there is this contradiction it's kind of 177 00:08:03,459 --> 00:08:01,579 wrapped in there it's true it's true 178 00:08:05,290 --> 00:08:03,469 it's true I hear you saying and then I 179 00:08:07,989 --> 00:08:05,300 hear you slipping in saying it's not 180 00:08:09,699 --> 00:08:07,999 literally true I think a lot of people 181 00:08:12,069 --> 00:08:09,709 are gonna have have a hard time with 182 00:08:14,199 --> 00:08:12,079 that and even I have a hard time with 183 00:08:16,929 --> 00:08:14,209 that but before I pull it apart I want 184 00:08:19,119 --> 00:08:16,939 you to give me a better example of where 185 00:08:21,189 --> 00:08:19,129 you think that can really come to a head 186 00:08:23,769 --> 00:08:21,199 an example that people can really get 187 00:08:25,119 --> 00:08:23,779 their arms down I'll give you I've tried 188 00:08:27,879 --> 00:08:25,129 to give you an example before I do that 189 00:08:30,779 --> 00:08:27,889 let let me just make a disclaimer if I 190 00:08:34,990 --> 00:08:30,789 could translate religious symbolism 191 00:08:37,769 --> 00:08:35,000 fairly into a linear literal narrative 192 00:08:40,689 --> 00:08:37,779 then we wouldn't need religion anymore 193 00:08:43,269 --> 00:08:40,699 we would just go for the linear a 194 00:08:46,780 --> 00:08:43,279 literal narrative which is much more 195 00:08:48,699 --> 00:08:46,790 straightforward to communicate so what 196 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:48,709 I'm saying is precisely that what 197 00:08:53,310 --> 00:08:51,410 religious myths the authentic ones the 198 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:53,320 history proven ones what 199 00:08:57,870 --> 00:08:54,850 what blink what hold on because we keep 200 00:09:01,320 --> 00:08:57,880 going past this give us an example of an 201 00:09:03,540 --> 00:09:01,330 authentic one a history proven one you 202 00:09:05,340 --> 00:09:03,550 just look at the myth that that have 203 00:09:06,900 --> 00:09:05,350 been with us for thousands of years and 204 00:09:09,180 --> 00:09:06,910 whose elements are common to various 205 00:09:11,010 --> 00:09:09,190 religions for instance the Christian 206 00:09:13,380 --> 00:09:11,020 myth of the Trinity you can see that in 207 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:13,390 Hinduism in Christian Trinity you have 208 00:09:18,780 --> 00:09:14,890 the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit 209 00:09:22,610 --> 00:09:18,790 in Hinduism you have Brahma Vishnu and 210 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:22,620 Shiva you have that in Jewish Kabbalah 211 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:25,330 it's everywhere the idea of the Trinity 212 00:09:32,310 --> 00:09:29,530 you see that in some Aboriginal creation 213 00:09:33,870 --> 00:09:32,320 myths so that's an example that's a 214 00:09:36,770 --> 00:09:33,880 symbol the Trinity is a symbol it's 215 00:09:39,390 --> 00:09:36,780 pointing at something if we could 216 00:09:42,180 --> 00:09:39,400 communicate that something in literal 217 00:09:44,490 --> 00:09:42,190 linear logical terms we wouldn't need 218 00:09:46,980 --> 00:09:44,500 the religious symbolism we could get rid 219 00:09:49,470 --> 00:09:46,990 of religion so that's precisely what I'm 220 00:09:52,470 --> 00:09:49,480 saying these myths are pointing at 221 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:52,480 things that cannot be said in other ways 222 00:09:58,170 --> 00:09:55,810 that's their value that said I can try 223 00:09:59,850 --> 00:09:58,180 to give you a quick example of course I 224 00:10:01,500 --> 00:09:59,860 will destroy the symbol isn't the moment 225 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:01,510 I translate it but at least it gives 226 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:05,050 people a taste if you like let's stick 227 00:10:13,470 --> 00:10:08,650 with the Trinity with the Trinity I'm 228 00:10:18,030 --> 00:10:13,480 not sure what is the underlying truth 229 00:10:19,350 --> 00:10:18,040 that that really comes through to me I 230 00:10:23,990 --> 00:10:19,360 don't I don't understand that I 231 00:10:26,610 --> 00:10:24,000 understand it inside of the myth as an 232 00:10:29,610 --> 00:10:26,620 allegory but not as more than an 233 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:29,620 allegory uh so but take me a little bit 234 00:10:34,950 --> 00:10:31,930 further there and that take that example 235 00:10:40,410 --> 00:10:34,960 why there's an underlying deeper truth 236 00:10:43,710 --> 00:10:40,420 in in that you're asking me to translate 237 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:43,720 it into linear direct explicit literal 238 00:10:49,790 --> 00:10:47,050 terms in order to make sense of it we 239 00:10:53,250 --> 00:10:49,800 can sort of as Jung called it we can 240 00:10:55,770 --> 00:10:53,260 circumambulate it we can go around it 241 00:10:58,410 --> 00:10:55,780 and show different perspectives of it to 242 00:11:01,710 --> 00:10:58,420 suggest the deeper meaning but the 243 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:01,720 deeper meaning can't be explained 244 00:11:07,150 --> 00:11:05,770 directly Trinity we can amplify that and 245 00:11:12,639 --> 00:11:07,160 talk about 246 00:11:14,680 --> 00:11:12,649 requiring two polarities in order to 247 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:14,690 manifest so the two polarities being two 248 00:11:19,119 --> 00:11:16,610 points and the third the manifestation 249 00:11:21,610 --> 00:11:19,129 being the third one you can talk about 250 00:11:24,340 --> 00:11:21,620 like in the Kabbalah division of a unit 251 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:24,350 into two different polarities so these 252 00:11:30,369 --> 00:11:26,689 are a ways to go around what this thing 253 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:30,379 is pointing at but if we restrict our 254 00:11:36,639 --> 00:11:33,170 understanding of the symbolism to these 255 00:11:38,470 --> 00:11:36,649 literal translations we basically kill 256 00:11:39,610 --> 00:11:38,480 the myth we wouldn't need it if that 257 00:11:42,850 --> 00:11:39,620 weren't enough I can give you another 258 00:11:44,379 --> 00:11:42,860 example there is a great example let me 259 00:11:46,030 --> 00:11:44,389 throw an example on the table because I 260 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:46,040 think it might take us in a different 261 00:11:52,210 --> 00:11:48,170 direction consider the the flood myth 262 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:52,220 right the flood myth a continuation of 263 00:11:59,860 --> 00:11:55,370 society by a brave few or a brave 264 00:12:02,559 --> 00:11:59,870 individual who right so but now take the 265 00:12:05,499 --> 00:12:02,569 flood myth and maybe consider you know 266 00:12:08,889 --> 00:12:05,509 cram Hancock's latest book which is a 267 00:12:12,639 --> 00:12:08,899 redo of his past book and say oh maybe 268 00:12:13,540 --> 00:12:12,649 there isn't an allegorical connection to 269 00:12:19,949 --> 00:12:13,550 the flood myth 270 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:19,959 maybe there's a real a real catastrophic 271 00:12:27,249 --> 00:12:22,850 environmental event connected to that 272 00:12:29,590 --> 00:12:27,259 flood myth so can we really say that 273 00:12:31,929 --> 00:12:29,600 about religious myths can we really 274 00:12:33,790 --> 00:12:31,939 paint them with such a broad brush and 275 00:12:35,889 --> 00:12:33,800 don't we need really kind of tear them 276 00:12:38,259 --> 00:12:35,899 apart one by one and look at them of 277 00:12:40,269 --> 00:12:38,269 course when I talk about religious myths 278 00:12:42,429 --> 00:12:40,279 I'm not talking about the entire corpus 279 00:12:44,290 --> 00:12:42,439 the entire Canon of a particular 280 00:12:47,530 --> 00:12:44,300 religion which consists of many books 281 00:12:49,509 --> 00:12:47,540 many stories many tales yeah I'm 282 00:12:50,769 --> 00:12:49,519 completely open to the idea that the 283 00:12:54,670 --> 00:12:50,779 myth of the flood which you see 284 00:12:56,590 --> 00:12:54,680 everywhere is an echo of a far distant 285 00:12:58,900 --> 00:12:56,600 historical events at the end of the last 286 00:13:00,999 --> 00:12:58,910 ice age I'm completely open to that 287 00:13:03,429 --> 00:13:01,009 actually I will go further I would say 288 00:13:05,889 --> 00:13:03,439 that I think that's the best explanation 289 00:13:08,079 --> 00:13:05,899 for the consistency with which we see 290 00:13:10,509 --> 00:13:08,089 this particular story reflected in the 291 00:13:12,189 --> 00:13:10,519 world's cultures when I talk about 292 00:13:15,429 --> 00:13:12,199 religious myths I'm talking about the 293 00:13:17,259 --> 00:13:15,439 symbolic core an essence which usually 294 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:17,269 can be captured in that in a couple of 295 00:13:23,079 --> 00:13:21,050 pages in in Aboriginal 296 00:13:25,090 --> 00:13:23,089 creation myths the entire myth can be 297 00:13:29,170 --> 00:13:25,100 summarized in a cup of pages and it has 298 00:13:30,699 --> 00:13:29,180 also many key symbolic elements these 299 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:30,709 are the things that are referred to in 300 00:13:34,930 --> 00:13:31,970 the Christian myth that would be the 301 00:13:37,300 --> 00:13:34,940 Trinity that would be the idea of the 302 00:13:39,519 --> 00:13:37,310 incarnation of God in the world the 303 00:13:45,210 --> 00:13:39,529 crucifixion the symbol of the cross and 304 00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:45,220 the resurrection okay so let's take that 305 00:13:52,269 --> 00:13:48,910 those Christian aspects to it and then 306 00:13:54,610 --> 00:13:52,279 here's where here's the part I guess I 307 00:13:56,730 --> 00:13:54,620 keep pushing against you know I'll give 308 00:14:00,730 --> 00:13:56,740 you an example we just did a show on 309 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:00,740 sceptical about cults in near-death 310 00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:04,490 experience science and it was we really 311 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:06,320 focused on this one particular cult that 312 00:14:11,319 --> 00:14:09,010 seems to have made inroads into this one 313 00:14:14,259 --> 00:14:11,329 near-death experience research 314 00:14:17,139 --> 00:14:14,269 organization and the the funny thing 315 00:14:19,810 --> 00:14:17,149 about it is it really kind of sent me to 316 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:19,820 looking at cults in general and the 317 00:14:26,380 --> 00:14:23,690 appeal of cults and it really raises a 318 00:14:30,460 --> 00:14:26,390 lot of questions on a lot of different 319 00:14:32,019 --> 00:14:30,470 levels because as as people have pointed 320 00:14:33,639 --> 00:14:32,029 out and people pointed out in the 321 00:14:35,199 --> 00:14:33,649 sceptical form and it's undeniable as 322 00:14:37,389 --> 00:14:35,209 soon as you look into it almost every 323 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:37,399 religion religious tradition you can 324 00:14:45,430 --> 00:14:41,810 look at has a strong cult ish element to 325 00:14:48,250 --> 00:14:45,440 it I mean the Christian cult the the 326 00:14:51,699 --> 00:14:48,260 Mormon called all these cults but does 327 00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:51,709 that mean that in the extended 328 00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:54,320 consciousness realm that is where the 329 00:14:57,880 --> 00:14:55,910 where I think the rubber meets the road 330 00:14:59,590 --> 00:14:57,890 here when we get to extended 331 00:15:01,780 --> 00:14:59,600 consciousness when we get to people 332 00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:01,790 seeing Christ consciousness when they 333 00:15:06,250 --> 00:15:03,920 have a near-death experience and they 334 00:15:08,380 --> 00:15:06,260 want to know is that real or is that not 335 00:15:11,019 --> 00:15:08,390 real that's where I think people are 336 00:15:14,530 --> 00:15:11,029 connecting with their religious myths 337 00:15:17,019 --> 00:15:14,540 and that becomes a really difficult 338 00:15:19,750 --> 00:15:17,029 thing to tear apart because sometimes 339 00:15:22,110 --> 00:15:19,760 who and what they're connecting with in 340 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:22,120 these extended consciousness realms 341 00:15:30,069 --> 00:15:25,730 don't line up with history so we have 342 00:15:33,130 --> 00:15:30,079 kind of another tangled web here when 343 00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:33,140 we're trying to balance a historical 344 00:15:38,980 --> 00:15:34,310 timeline 345 00:15:41,319 --> 00:15:38,990 with what's happening with I think these 346 00:15:43,540 --> 00:15:41,329 transcendent experiences that most 347 00:15:45,939 --> 00:15:43,550 people are saying are at the core of 348 00:15:48,429 --> 00:15:45,949 these religious experiences that was a 349 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:48,439 terribly phrased question but there's 350 00:15:54,989 --> 00:15:49,970 two parts of that let me try and pull 351 00:15:59,019 --> 00:15:54,999 apart one is how do we incorporate in 352 00:16:02,379 --> 00:15:59,029 the transcendent spiritual experience 353 00:16:05,019 --> 00:16:02,389 that you and I probably would at least 354 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:05,029 agree has to be looked at in this 355 00:16:08,889 --> 00:16:07,610 extended consciousness realm not from 356 00:16:11,079 --> 00:16:08,899 the realm that you and I are talking 357 00:16:12,970 --> 00:16:11,089 about but there's some realm beyond that 358 00:16:15,790 --> 00:16:12,980 where these things seem to be happening 359 00:16:17,379 --> 00:16:15,800 so that's part number one and then part 360 00:16:21,699 --> 00:16:17,389 number two is how do we tie that back to 361 00:16:25,509 --> 00:16:21,709 our history well there's a lot to 362 00:16:28,869 --> 00:16:25,519 comment on there I don't think that 363 00:16:32,019 --> 00:16:28,879 every religious myth originated from a 364 00:16:33,910 --> 00:16:32,029 particular individual remarkable 365 00:16:34,629 --> 00:16:33,920 transcendent experience of extended 366 00:16:37,150 --> 00:16:34,639 consciousness 367 00:16:40,119 --> 00:16:37,160 I think religious myths then also to 368 00:16:44,110 --> 00:16:40,129 percolate from the obfuscated mind up 369 00:16:46,090 --> 00:16:44,120 into our self reflective awareness in 370 00:16:48,129 --> 00:16:46,100 the same way that intuitions percolate 371 00:16:49,869 --> 00:16:48,139 up in the same way that you dream at 372 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:49,879 night and remain with a certain feeling 373 00:16:54,220 --> 00:16:51,290 a certain impression of that and 374 00:16:57,009 --> 00:16:54,230 throughout the day when that happens at 375 00:16:58,780 --> 00:16:57,019 a large social scale you may end up with 376 00:17:00,879 --> 00:16:58,790 the religious myth I mean we are 377 00:17:03,249 --> 00:17:00,889 constantly connected with the obfuscated 378 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:03,259 mining very subtle ways so it I don't 379 00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:05,329 think it's necessarily the case that one 380 00:17:11,260 --> 00:17:08,510 person has a mind-blowing trance-like 381 00:17:15,220 --> 00:17:11,270 experience to generate a religious myth 382 00:17:18,370 --> 00:17:15,230 now even if that does happen as in the 383 00:17:20,439 --> 00:17:18,380 case of near-death experiences I think a 384 00:17:25,449 --> 00:17:20,449 mistake that most people tend to make is 385 00:17:27,220 --> 00:17:25,459 to project onto the realm if we want to 386 00:17:29,710 --> 00:17:27,230 use that word the realm of death 387 00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:29,720 transcendent experience to nd the same 388 00:17:35,620 --> 00:17:33,289 characteristics of our current seemingly 389 00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:35,630 objective world in other words we tend 390 00:17:39,639 --> 00:17:37,130 to interpret what people experience 391 00:17:41,950 --> 00:17:39,649 there as literally true so if somebody 392 00:17:43,570 --> 00:17:41,960 saw Jesus then it must be Jesus is 393 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:43,580 somebody else saw the Buddha because he 394 00:17:48,190 --> 00:17:46,850 had a different cultural background then 395 00:17:49,570 --> 00:17:48,200 there is a conflict there is a 396 00:17:51,669 --> 00:17:49,580 prediction it's either Jesus or the 397 00:17:54,310 --> 00:17:51,679 Buddha I submit to you that what people 398 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:54,320 experience there are symbols of a deeper 399 00:17:58,720 --> 00:17:56,690 truth which are translated into ways 400 00:18:00,789 --> 00:17:58,730 that they can make sense of symbolically 401 00:18:04,210 --> 00:18:00,799 according to their own background so 402 00:18:06,340 --> 00:18:04,220 there is something there is that is that 403 00:18:08,590 --> 00:18:06,350 everybody experiences but each person 404 00:18:11,230 --> 00:18:08,600 experiences according to the clothing to 405 00:18:14,110 --> 00:18:11,240 the masks of his or her own cultural 406 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:14,120 background in the form of symbols and 407 00:18:19,389 --> 00:18:16,250 the last comment I'd like to make on 408 00:18:22,210 --> 00:18:19,399 what you just said every everything 409 00:18:25,899 --> 00:18:22,220 human beings do can be turned into an 410 00:18:28,060 --> 00:18:25,909 ideology and then abused religion is no 411 00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:28,070 exception to that economics is no 412 00:18:33,789 --> 00:18:31,510 exception to death politics social 413 00:18:36,399 --> 00:18:33,799 dogmas and so on everything can be 414 00:18:39,669 --> 00:18:36,409 abused and institutions can also be use 415 00:18:42,009 --> 00:18:39,679 of everything so in defending the value 416 00:18:44,259 --> 00:18:42,019 of primordial religious mythology 417 00:18:47,289 --> 00:18:44,269 through religious mythology I'm not 418 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:47,299 necessarily defending cult institutions 419 00:18:56,289 --> 00:18:53,210 priest who another clergy who may find 420 00:18:59,320 --> 00:18:56,299 themselves using this primordial 421 00:19:01,690 --> 00:18:59,330 primordial religious impulse for self 422 00:19:03,190 --> 00:19:01,700 benefit for power for economic gain or 423 00:19:07,029 --> 00:19:03,200 for whatever I'm not defending any of 424 00:19:11,980 --> 00:19:07,039 that I'm defending simply the idea that 425 00:19:15,490 --> 00:19:11,990 we should not generalize this primordial 426 00:19:17,860 --> 00:19:15,500 religious impulse with all the negative 427 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:17,870 aspects of institutionalized religion we 428 00:19:21,940 --> 00:19:19,730 shouldn't throw away the baby with the 429 00:19:23,289 --> 00:19:21,950 bathwater yes there is much negative to 430 00:19:25,539 --> 00:19:23,299 be said about religion in the world 431 00:19:27,700 --> 00:19:25,549 today and historically as well perhaps 432 00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:27,710 even much more than today if we go back 433 00:19:34,210 --> 00:19:30,710 in time but that doesn't mean that there 434 00:19:36,549 --> 00:19:34,220 that there is no value to that primary 435 00:19:39,009 --> 00:19:36,559 sense to that primary intuition of 436 00:19:43,060 --> 00:19:39,019 transcendence and meaning we are crazy 437 00:19:44,789 --> 00:19:43,070 to throw that one away okay but I'm 438 00:19:49,389 --> 00:19:44,799 gonna pull this back to the near-death 439 00:19:52,090 --> 00:19:49,399 experience science again because there's 440 00:19:54,789 --> 00:19:52,100 some points that we can grab on to 441 00:19:57,129 --> 00:19:54,799 there's some islands in the ocean of all 442 00:19:59,769 --> 00:19:57,139 these abstractions that we can kind of 443 00:20:01,460 --> 00:19:59,779 at least have the illusion of having 444 00:20:04,820 --> 00:20:01,470 real data we can grab onto 445 00:20:08,419 --> 00:20:04,830 so the near-death experience you're 446 00:20:11,690 --> 00:20:08,429 saying that the experience with Christ 447 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:11,700 consciousness isn't really Christ 448 00:20:18,549 --> 00:20:14,370 consciousness it's the percolating up of 449 00:20:23,090 --> 00:20:18,559 some deep-seated kind of me more 450 00:20:25,730 --> 00:20:23,100 psychological common shared idea of what 451 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:25,740 that is okay let's put that over there 452 00:20:32,029 --> 00:20:29,610 as a possible hypothesis do you say the 453 00:20:34,850 --> 00:20:32,039 same thing about someone's connection 454 00:20:37,190 --> 00:20:34,860 with friends and family that is a common 455 00:20:39,649 --> 00:20:37,200 feature of a near-death experience is 456 00:20:42,980 --> 00:20:39,659 that they meet people who have been 457 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:42,990 deceased we can even get really concrete 458 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:45,450 with it and say they seem to only meet 459 00:20:49,909 --> 00:20:47,610 people who have been deceased there have 460 00:20:51,950 --> 00:20:49,919 been many reports of people who meet 461 00:20:54,529 --> 00:20:51,960 people that they didn't even know were 462 00:20:57,980 --> 00:20:54,539 deceased and then later found out that 463 00:20:59,749 --> 00:20:57,990 they were deceased so in its let me add 464 00:21:01,639 --> 00:20:59,759 one other part that's just a little bit 465 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:01,649 beyond the near-death experience but we 466 00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:05,730 have many many other examples in after 467 00:21:10,970 --> 00:21:07,440 death communication much of which has 468 00:21:13,070 --> 00:21:10,980 been studied pretty scientifically for a 469 00:21:15,980 --> 00:21:13,080 long time that suggests there's a 470 00:21:18,350 --> 00:21:15,990 reality to it this extended 471 00:21:21,710 --> 00:21:18,360 consciousness realm that connects us 472 00:21:24,860 --> 00:21:21,720 with our dearly departed deceased loved 473 00:21:26,899 --> 00:21:24,870 ones so would we say the same thing 474 00:21:28,730 --> 00:21:26,909 about that it's as part of the 475 00:21:29,990 --> 00:21:28,740 near-death experience and as a part of 476 00:21:32,659 --> 00:21:30,000 after death communication in general 477 00:21:34,190 --> 00:21:32,669 that hey that's not real it's just a 478 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:34,200 cultural interpretation it's 479 00:21:41,529 --> 00:21:35,730 wish-fulfillment it's all the rest of 480 00:21:43,909 --> 00:21:41,539 that I didn't say it was not real no I 481 00:21:47,330 --> 00:21:43,919 want your opinion I didn't say that yeah 482 00:21:49,669 --> 00:21:47,340 say it I mean I think it is real but it 483 00:21:54,590 --> 00:21:49,679 may not necessarily be real in a naive 484 00:21:58,460 --> 00:21:54,600 literal linear way I'll share an opinion 485 00:22:01,610 --> 00:21:58,470 with you in your audience I think a lot 486 00:22:03,950 --> 00:22:01,620 of the psychological motivation behind 487 00:22:08,990 --> 00:22:03,960 the interest in near-death experiences 488 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:09,000 is the search for confirmation that our 489 00:22:14,529 --> 00:22:11,610 personal identity and deer's beyond 490 00:22:18,479 --> 00:22:14,539 physical death that's an E 491 00:22:20,469 --> 00:22:18,489 survival impulse I am an idea idealist 492 00:22:22,659 --> 00:22:20,479 philosophical idealist as you know I 493 00:22:24,519 --> 00:22:22,669 think that reality is in in a 494 00:22:26,289 --> 00:22:24,529 transpersonal form of consciousness and 495 00:22:28,269 --> 00:22:26,299 that what we call individualized 496 00:22:31,299 --> 00:22:28,279 consciousness or individual human beings 497 00:22:34,389 --> 00:22:31,309 individual animals are just split off 498 00:22:36,639 --> 00:22:34,399 dissociated complexes of a universal 499 00:22:39,279 --> 00:22:36,649 consciousness dissociated alters there 500 00:22:41,709 --> 00:22:39,289 is no intrinsic reality to individuality 501 00:22:44,439 --> 00:22:41,719 there is only one thing going on one 502 00:22:48,069 --> 00:22:44,449 sense one pure sense of I which is the 503 00:22:48,729 --> 00:22:48,079 eye of nature as a whole so to me it 504 00:22:51,989 --> 00:22:48,739 isn't 505 00:22:54,159 --> 00:22:51,999 important whether personalized 506 00:22:57,099 --> 00:22:54,169 dissociated consciousness and years 507 00:23:00,219 --> 00:22:57,109 beyond physical death it may there seems 508 00:23:03,849 --> 00:23:00,229 to be very suggestive evidence that it 509 00:23:06,189 --> 00:23:03,859 does but it doesn't really turns me on 510 00:23:08,379 --> 00:23:06,199 to going to the question of when people 511 00:23:12,009 --> 00:23:08,389 see deceased relatives and loved ones 512 00:23:14,009 --> 00:23:12,019 are they symbols or are they still were 513 00:23:16,209 --> 00:23:14,019 posed of consciousness are they still 514 00:23:18,279 --> 00:23:16,219 dissociated outers of universal 515 00:23:20,589 --> 00:23:18,289 consciousness much more than just 516 00:23:23,199 --> 00:23:20,599 whether it interests you or motivates 517 00:23:24,969 --> 00:23:23,209 you it seems to be core to this central 518 00:23:27,689 --> 00:23:24,979 to this to this question that we're 519 00:23:30,430 --> 00:23:27,699 talking about because if consciousness 520 00:23:33,129 --> 00:23:30,440 individuated consciousness survives in 521 00:23:35,559 --> 00:23:33,139 some way similar to what they're talking 522 00:23:39,219 --> 00:23:35,569 about then we're really talking about a 523 00:23:41,789 --> 00:23:39,229 whole different okay okay so let's let's 524 00:23:44,439 --> 00:23:41,799 take a very well-known case let's take I 525 00:23:47,409 --> 00:23:44,449 need two more journeys if I remember her 526 00:23:49,509 --> 00:23:47,419 name correctly sure if you go through 527 00:23:53,019 --> 00:23:49,519 her report which is I think one of the 528 00:23:55,749 --> 00:23:53,029 most cogent and the e reports I've read 529 00:24:00,279 --> 00:23:55,759 and seems to me to be a very honest 530 00:24:02,019 --> 00:24:00,289 report he talks she talks very openly 531 00:24:03,849 --> 00:24:02,029 about not only meaty and diseased 532 00:24:06,849 --> 00:24:03,859 relative like I think it was her father 533 00:24:09,899 --> 00:24:06,859 but becoming that dizzy is relative so 534 00:24:15,399 --> 00:24:09,909 she she talks about becoming her father 535 00:24:16,629 --> 00:24:15,409 now what does it mean then to ask the 536 00:24:18,879 --> 00:24:16,639 question is her father 537 00:24:20,649 --> 00:24:18,889 our symbol or is it really her father as 538 00:24:22,959 --> 00:24:20,659 a separate entity and there is something 539 00:24:26,559 --> 00:24:22,969 it is like to be her father she just 540 00:24:28,090 --> 00:24:26,569 became her father she just felt what it 541 00:24:33,129 --> 00:24:28,100 is to be her father 542 00:24:35,710 --> 00:24:33,139 and it is her father a symbol let me put 543 00:24:38,529 --> 00:24:35,720 it this way it may be that the answer to 544 00:24:41,769 --> 00:24:38,539 the question is yes for both it is a 545 00:24:43,450 --> 00:24:41,779 symbol and it is a dissociated outer of 546 00:24:46,269 --> 00:24:43,460 universal consciousness still 547 00:24:48,849 --> 00:24:46,279 dissociated after physical death because 548 00:24:52,869 --> 00:24:48,859 people right now alive maybe nothing but 549 00:24:55,389 --> 00:24:52,879 symbols as well we are operating under 550 00:24:57,609 --> 00:24:55,399 this assumption that this world is not 551 00:24:59,889 --> 00:24:57,619 symbolic and that the afterlife whatever 552 00:25:02,289 --> 00:24:59,899 it made me maybe is different it is 553 00:25:02,589 --> 00:25:02,299 symbolic maybe this world is symbolic as 554 00:25:04,479 --> 00:25:02,599 well 555 00:25:08,710 --> 00:25:04,489 maybe we are living in a world of 556 00:25:10,899 --> 00:25:08,720 symbols and metaphors right now right 557 00:25:13,060 --> 00:25:10,909 but I think we got a problem if we say 558 00:25:14,859 --> 00:25:13,070 when we when we start trying to 559 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:14,869 understand our world and the way that 560 00:25:18,719 --> 00:25:16,570 you're trying to understand it which is 561 00:25:21,849 --> 00:25:18,729 necessary we all want to play this 562 00:25:24,639 --> 00:25:21,859 consensus reality game I see you you see 563 00:25:25,930 --> 00:25:24,649 me I touch my computer that's a reality 564 00:25:27,639 --> 00:25:25,940 we all want to play that game and 565 00:25:29,649 --> 00:25:27,649 pretend that that's real because it's 566 00:25:30,339 --> 00:25:29,659 the only way we can kind of make things 567 00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:30,349 make sense 568 00:25:35,109 --> 00:25:32,960 so we play that consensus reality game 569 00:25:38,739 --> 00:25:35,119 and then you say things like these 570 00:25:41,499 --> 00:25:38,749 things aren't literally true but then I 571 00:25:43,539 --> 00:25:41,509 play the same consensus reality game and 572 00:25:45,789 --> 00:25:43,549 I look at after death communication and 573 00:25:48,190 --> 00:25:45,799 I say no but every means we have of 574 00:25:50,889 --> 00:25:48,200 measuring it the best we can come up 575 00:25:54,129 --> 00:25:50,899 with is consciousness seems to survive 576 00:25:57,099 --> 00:25:54,139 bodily death in the way that it's been 577 00:25:59,969 --> 00:25:57,109 described throughout time throughout 578 00:26:03,820 --> 00:25:59,979 cultures and that's that your deceased 579 00:26:06,279 --> 00:26:03,830 grandfather really is there and really 580 00:26:10,869 --> 00:26:06,289 does see what you're doing now whether 581 00:26:14,919 --> 00:26:10,879 he is a broken-off sliver of an infinite 582 00:26:18,609 --> 00:26:14,929 number of other aspects of consciousness 583 00:26:20,979 --> 00:26:18,619 or not I don't know you don't know I 584 00:26:23,019 --> 00:26:20,989 don't think we can come close to but in 585 00:26:26,259 --> 00:26:23,029 terms of the experience that we have 586 00:26:28,930 --> 00:26:26,269 again look at the numbers you know 60% 587 00:26:33,999 --> 00:26:28,940 of people who have a longtime partner 588 00:26:37,479 --> 00:26:34,009 who is deceased has communication with 589 00:26:39,220 --> 00:26:37,489 that partner now then you can pull that 590 00:26:41,149 --> 00:26:39,230 apart go oh it's a delusional or 591 00:26:44,389 --> 00:26:41,159 whatever so then go study at science 592 00:26:47,389 --> 00:26:44,399 study after death communication study it 593 00:26:49,339 --> 00:26:47,399 you know in every way that you can and 594 00:26:51,109 --> 00:26:49,349 then a you know spontaneous after death 595 00:26:55,729 --> 00:26:51,119 communication controlled after death 596 00:26:57,529 --> 00:26:55,739 communication uh minoo in induced after 597 00:27:00,229 --> 00:26:57,539 death communication in every way you can 598 00:27:03,109 --> 00:27:00,239 do it the same data comes back there 599 00:27:05,210 --> 00:27:03,119 there your ancestors are there and 600 00:27:07,249 --> 00:27:05,220 that's why every culture has said that 601 00:27:09,469 --> 00:27:07,259 because there's a certain reality to it 602 00:27:11,899 --> 00:27:09,479 again if we're gonna play the consensus 603 00:27:13,940 --> 00:27:11,909 reality game so I'm just not willing to 604 00:27:17,229 --> 00:27:13,950 give up on that point because I don't 605 00:27:20,930 --> 00:27:17,239 know how we can leave it behind to to 606 00:27:23,299 --> 00:27:20,940 fit into something else I think it is 607 00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:23,309 valid you know me I have been playing 608 00:27:27,589 --> 00:27:25,710 the consensus reality game for for 609 00:27:29,570 --> 00:27:27,599 awhile I don't give up on that either I 610 00:27:31,310 --> 00:27:29,580 think within the constraints of that 611 00:27:33,889 --> 00:27:31,320 consensus reality game we can have a 612 00:27:36,710 --> 00:27:33,899 much better cultural narrative than than 613 00:27:38,479 --> 00:27:36,720 silly physicalism but I'm willing to 614 00:27:40,489 --> 00:27:38,489 play the consensus reality game as well 615 00:27:43,399 --> 00:27:40,499 and what does it mean to play that game 616 00:27:46,909 --> 00:27:43,409 it means to apply linear logic 617 00:27:48,159 --> 00:27:46,919 rationality the axioms of Aristotelian 618 00:27:51,049 --> 00:27:48,169 logic if you will 619 00:27:53,570 --> 00:27:51,059 empirical honesty to what we can verify 620 00:27:55,339 --> 00:27:53,580 empirically that's what it means to play 621 00:27:58,489 --> 00:27:55,349 that game and I think it's valid to play 622 00:28:01,279 --> 00:27:58,499 that even for studies of NDEs and 623 00:28:04,700 --> 00:28:01,289 whatever the after afterlife may or may 624 00:28:07,869 --> 00:28:04,710 not be my point however and that's the 625 00:28:09,669 --> 00:28:07,879 core of the thing is that I think 626 00:28:15,489 --> 00:28:09,679 religious myths 627 00:28:17,839 --> 00:28:15,499 beyond the constraints of this game 628 00:28:19,969 --> 00:28:17,849 that's what they are pointing to they 629 00:28:23,629 --> 00:28:19,979 are pointing at something beyond linear 630 00:28:26,479 --> 00:28:23,639 logic beyond space and time beyond the 631 00:28:29,029 --> 00:28:26,489 constraints that we willingly adopt in 632 00:28:30,799 --> 00:28:29,039 order in in our ordinary relationship 633 00:28:34,419 --> 00:28:30,809 with reality we shouldn't give those 634 00:28:38,539 --> 00:28:34,429 constraints up but I think we shouldn't 635 00:28:40,909 --> 00:28:38,549 lose willingly our only umbilical 636 00:28:43,549 --> 00:28:40,919 connection to something that goes beyond 637 00:28:45,950 --> 00:28:43,559 that either and and that's what those 638 00:28:49,310 --> 00:28:45,960 myths are pointing to and I think it 639 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:49,320 would be a pity to to for us to start 640 00:28:53,570 --> 00:28:51,570 believing that the only game there is 641 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:53,580 that all reality can be captured in 642 00:28:56,749 --> 00:28:54,570 space 643 00:29:01,549 --> 00:28:56,759 and I'm thinking and linear logic that 644 00:29:04,039 --> 00:29:01,559 would be a pity for you personally how 645 00:29:09,730 --> 00:29:04,049 does how do you connect with that idea 646 00:29:13,340 --> 00:29:09,740 of the transcendence of religious myths 647 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:13,350 I've lost like for many years in my life 648 00:29:19,549 --> 00:29:17,490 I lost contact with that as a kid I had 649 00:29:22,070 --> 00:29:19,559 a basically a scientific liberal and 650 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:22,080 education I was exposed to religious 651 00:29:25,789 --> 00:29:24,450 liturgy from the side of my mother but I 652 00:29:27,950 --> 00:29:25,799 lost contact with that I went to 653 00:29:30,379 --> 00:29:27,960 university at 17 and I dismissed that 654 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:30,389 even before that and from many as I lost 655 00:29:41,570 --> 00:29:34,610 it only my mid-thirties it sort of a a 656 00:29:44,149 --> 00:29:41,580 new sensitivity in me a sensitivity to 657 00:29:49,340 --> 00:29:44,159 things beyond just the straitjacket of 658 00:29:52,549 --> 00:29:49,350 of rationality of linear thinking and I 659 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:52,559 recovered some of that I had some some 660 00:29:58,519 --> 00:29:55,250 intuitive experiences while I was 661 00:30:01,789 --> 00:29:58,529 visiting medieval cathedrals in Europe 662 00:30:03,470 --> 00:30:01,799 which I was doing at least that was my 663 00:30:07,639 --> 00:30:03,480 own narrative because I was interested 664 00:30:10,310 --> 00:30:07,649 in in the architecture you tell yourself 665 00:30:13,249 --> 00:30:10,320 you're telling yourself at at some level 666 00:30:15,230 --> 00:30:13,259 that a logical rational level oh I like 667 00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:15,240 the architecture I like the music I like 668 00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:17,129 the glass the way the light comes in 669 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:18,809 through the glass and you're drawn to 670 00:30:23,090 --> 00:30:21,690 these places and you feel that at a 671 00:30:23,930 --> 00:30:23,100 deeper level maybe you were drawn there 672 00:30:28,090 --> 00:30:23,940 for another reason 673 00:30:30,950 --> 00:30:28,100 yes so that gave me some exposure which 674 00:30:33,769 --> 00:30:30,960 was helpful another thing that happened 675 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:33,779 is that in articulating my philosophy my 676 00:30:39,169 --> 00:30:36,450 ontology in a very linear very rational 677 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:39,179 and perfectly consistent way I started 678 00:30:44,779 --> 00:30:41,850 realizing that it resonated a lot with 679 00:30:47,110 --> 00:30:44,789 the with the very odd religious myths 680 00:30:50,149 --> 00:30:47,120 and I described them in the book I do a 681 00:30:52,700 --> 00:30:50,159 review of creation myths and religious 682 00:30:54,980 --> 00:30:52,710 myths that basically rrt to symbolic 683 00:30:56,389 --> 00:30:54,990 articulations of of idealism of this 684 00:30:58,519 --> 00:30:56,399 idea that all reality is in a 685 00:31:01,009 --> 00:30:58,529 transpersonal form of consciousness and 686 00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:01,019 that also triggered me and started 687 00:31:07,410 --> 00:31:03,600 thinking hey if if if this is the case 688 00:31:11,250 --> 00:31:07,420 what else are these myths pointing to it 689 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:11,260 me a sense of it allowed me to give some 690 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:15,610 credibility to these myths and then 691 00:31:21,630 --> 00:31:18,730 personal experiences happened that gave 692 00:31:23,460 --> 00:31:21,640 me a taste of what the myths are 693 00:31:26,130 --> 00:31:23,470 actually pointing to these this 694 00:31:28,050 --> 00:31:26,140 transcendent aspects of reality that 695 00:31:30,690 --> 00:31:28,060 these myths are pointing to and it which 696 00:31:32,580 --> 00:31:30,700 cannot be put in words in a way that 697 00:31:34,260 --> 00:31:32,590 does justice to them it's something that 698 00:31:38,430 --> 00:31:34,270 you have to experience yourself the 699 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:38,440 myths enable that that personal jump to 700 00:31:42,090 --> 00:31:39,970 a different cognitive space to a 701 00:31:45,180 --> 00:31:42,100 transcendent cognitive space by pointing 702 00:31:48,570 --> 00:31:45,190 and and by fomenting a kind of openness 703 00:31:50,580 --> 00:31:48,580 to that possibility and these are key 704 00:31:53,670 --> 00:31:50,590 conditions I think for anybody who who 705 00:31:57,300 --> 00:31:53,680 who hopes to have these experiences 706 00:32:01,050 --> 00:31:57,310 themselves has that transcendence led 707 00:32:03,390 --> 00:32:01,060 you towards a concept of God I think 708 00:32:05,580 --> 00:32:03,400 that is really the question that a lot 709 00:32:07,170 --> 00:32:05,590 of people have in their life they boil 710 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:07,180 it down to that kind of simple is there 711 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:09,130 God is there not a God and I've always 712 00:32:15,060 --> 00:32:11,530 wondered about that in your writing you 713 00:32:18,030 --> 00:32:15,070 seem to kind of be very careful with 714 00:32:21,330 --> 00:32:18,040 talking about the hierarchical nature of 715 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:21,340 consciousness to me it seems inevitable 716 00:32:27,270 --> 00:32:24,370 that when we start going down the lines 717 00:32:29,850 --> 00:32:27,280 that you're going down we arrive at some 718 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:29,860 concept that starts looking here it 719 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:32,890 starts sounding a lot like what a lot of 720 00:32:38,490 --> 00:32:35,530 people have a long time called God I'm 721 00:32:40,250 --> 00:32:38,500 much more open to that then than I was 722 00:32:44,460 --> 00:32:40,260 when we talked for the first time I'm 723 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:44,470 skeptical a few years ago I'm open to 724 00:32:51,510 --> 00:32:48,730 using the GU word now if you look at if 725 00:32:56,450 --> 00:32:51,520 I can just give you a couple of examples 726 00:32:59,430 --> 00:32:56,460 a basic Hindu myth is the idea that 727 00:33:01,440 --> 00:32:59,440 Brahman creates the framework of the 728 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:01,450 world in the form of primordial waters 729 00:33:08,340 --> 00:33:05,410 and then he creates a primordial egg in 730 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:08,350 that world and then Brahman himself is 731 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:11,410 born hatches from the primordial egg 732 00:33:16,890 --> 00:33:14,170 within the world of his creation and if 733 00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:16,900 you look at the Christian myth God is 734 00:33:22,310 --> 00:33:19,600 born within his own creation in the form 735 00:33:26,430 --> 00:33:22,320 of the Christ 736 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:26,440 through through a human woman so these 737 00:33:32,610 --> 00:33:30,010 things are pointing somewhere in there 738 00:33:36,810 --> 00:33:32,620 is an Aboriginal myth in which karora 739 00:33:39,210 --> 00:33:36,820 the the creator deity dreams the world 740 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:39,220 up into existence and then wakes up 741 00:33:44,340 --> 00:33:41,890 within his own dream so you have this 742 00:33:47,490 --> 00:33:44,350 theme again and again and again in so 743 00:33:49,260 --> 00:33:47,500 many different places of the idea that 744 00:33:49,710 --> 00:33:49,270 the world is a mental creation of a 745 00:33:52,710 --> 00:33:49,720 deity 746 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:52,720 which then enters his own creation 747 00:33:56,340 --> 00:33:54,610 by waking up in the dream or hatching 748 00:34:00,390 --> 00:33:56,350 from an egg that he puts within his 749 00:34:04,830 --> 00:34:00,400 creation or by by being born as Jesus 750 00:34:07,410 --> 00:34:04,840 the Christ this is pointing not only at 751 00:34:12,540 --> 00:34:07,420 what the idea of the deity means but 752 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:12,550 it's also pointing in a very rich way to 753 00:34:18,150 --> 00:34:14,650 the relationship between us people and 754 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:18,160 that deity you know Bernard are one of 755 00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:20,290 the things that I think people really 756 00:34:27,230 --> 00:34:23,200 like and connect with about your work is 757 00:34:32,010 --> 00:34:27,240 that you really do hold to a 758 00:34:34,950 --> 00:34:32,020 philosophical rigour in your analysis of 759 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:34,960 some of these very hard topics how do 760 00:34:41,720 --> 00:34:38,770 you reconcile that with what you've 761 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:41,730 discovered in this transcendent 762 00:34:52,910 --> 00:34:47,010 experience of religious myths okay I 763 00:34:55,260 --> 00:34:52,920 think we can articulate a very rigorous 764 00:34:57,510 --> 00:34:55,270 very logically consistent and 765 00:35:00,420 --> 00:34:57,520 empirically honest cultural narrative 766 00:35:02,700 --> 00:35:00,430 today and ontology if you will to make 767 00:35:05,490 --> 00:35:02,710 sense of the nature of reality one that 768 00:35:08,610 --> 00:35:05,500 is much superior to physicalism / 769 00:35:12,330 --> 00:35:08,620 materialism in terms of parsimony and in 770 00:35:14,370 --> 00:35:12,340 terms of explanatory power okay so this 771 00:35:16,950 --> 00:35:14,380 is the Bernardo we know that kind of 772 00:35:20,090 --> 00:35:16,960 ashes the material is straight on and 773 00:35:22,790 --> 00:35:20,100 says look it it just doesn't make sense 774 00:35:25,140 --> 00:35:22,800 logically we can break it down 775 00:35:27,450 --> 00:35:25,150 materialism physicalism has been 776 00:35:29,850 --> 00:35:27,460 falsified and you do an extraordinary 777 00:35:31,860 --> 00:35:29,860 job of that and actually just sent me a 778 00:35:34,089 --> 00:35:31,870 new paper on that that I think is the 779 00:35:36,489 --> 00:35:34,099 clearest example yet and I'll provide 780 00:35:39,219 --> 00:35:36,499 a link in the notes as well so that's 781 00:35:43,089 --> 00:35:39,229 one part we get that so yeah where do 782 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:43,099 you go from there okay so and that is 783 00:35:46,809 --> 00:35:44,930 sufficient to change the cultural 784 00:35:48,940 --> 00:35:46,819 narrative today we should change our 785 00:35:50,979 --> 00:35:48,950 cultural narrative today because on the 786 00:35:52,930 --> 00:35:50,989 basis of logic and Verico honesty and 787 00:35:55,509 --> 00:35:52,940 parsimony and explanatory power there is 788 00:35:59,410 --> 00:35:55,519 no reason to stick to the nonsense of 789 00:36:01,839 --> 00:35:59,420 physicalism now the alternative cultural 790 00:36:04,029 --> 00:36:01,849 narrative which one might call idealism 791 00:36:06,039 --> 00:36:04,039 or non-dual consciousness whatever name 792 00:36:10,029 --> 00:36:06,049 we give to it 793 00:36:13,269 --> 00:36:10,039 that in my view is a subset of what is 794 00:36:17,140 --> 00:36:13,279 really really going on and it is a 795 00:36:20,469 --> 00:36:17,150 subset that we can grasp and package 796 00:36:22,870 --> 00:36:20,479 within we can Corral within the 797 00:36:26,410 --> 00:36:22,880 constraints of language linear thinking 798 00:36:28,210 --> 00:36:26,420 logic rationality it's a subset it's a 799 00:36:31,029 --> 00:36:28,220 subset explain that a little bit further 800 00:36:32,799 --> 00:36:31,039 I think that's such a cool idea but but 801 00:36:35,289 --> 00:36:32,809 give us an example that really drives 802 00:36:38,309 --> 00:36:35,299 that home where is an example of that 803 00:36:40,329 --> 00:36:38,319 where maybe that thinking could be 804 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:40,339 grounded for someone they'd understand 805 00:36:44,370 --> 00:36:41,690 they could point to that person to go oh 806 00:36:47,410 --> 00:36:44,380 so you're saying that person thinks this 807 00:36:49,630 --> 00:36:47,420 my articulation of idealism entails the 808 00:36:52,269 --> 00:36:49,640 existence of space-time because I talk 809 00:36:54,489 --> 00:36:52,279 about where Poe's dissociative processes 810 00:36:54,969 --> 00:36:54,499 I talk about dynamics that unfold in 811 00:36:59,259 --> 00:36:54,979 time 812 00:37:01,630 --> 00:36:59,269 exist I think they are myths that we 813 00:37:03,609 --> 00:37:01,640 create ourselves because nobody has ever 814 00:37:05,979 --> 00:37:03,619 experienced time we only experience one 815 00:37:08,079 --> 00:37:05,989 thing called the now in the past and the 816 00:37:10,209 --> 00:37:08,089 future stories we tell ourselves in the 817 00:37:11,589 --> 00:37:10,219 now now that is something that you 818 00:37:14,529 --> 00:37:11,599 cannot put in language because language 819 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:14,539 are already entails the existence of 820 00:37:19,989 --> 00:37:17,450 space-time in in the different tenses in 821 00:37:22,329 --> 00:37:19,999 in which we conjugate verbs for instance 822 00:37:24,430 --> 00:37:22,339 language already entails the separation 823 00:37:27,130 --> 00:37:24,440 between subject and object it's built 824 00:37:29,410 --> 00:37:27,140 into language and language also has the 825 00:37:31,690 --> 00:37:29,420 constraints of logic built into it in 826 00:37:34,180 --> 00:37:31,700 the form of a grammar so would you say 827 00:37:36,219 --> 00:37:34,190 the same thing about non dual thinking 828 00:37:38,890 --> 00:37:36,229 in the same way is constrained in a way 829 00:37:41,140 --> 00:37:38,900 that it tries to kind of get outside of 830 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:41,150 itself but it can't because it's in the 831 00:37:47,799 --> 00:37:45,410 same so well well it can't to the extent 832 00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:47,809 that you wants to communicate it 833 00:37:51,250 --> 00:37:49,760 one you see when you talk about the 834 00:37:53,049 --> 00:37:51,260 cultural narrative we are talking about 835 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:53,059 something that needs to be communicated 836 00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:54,530 in language because that's the way we 837 00:37:58,270 --> 00:37:55,730 can share things in a straightforward 838 00:37:59,829 --> 00:37:58,280 way and the moment you need to 839 00:38:01,539 --> 00:37:59,839 communicate you're already talking about 840 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:01,549 a subset we can have a much better 841 00:38:07,059 --> 00:38:03,530 subset than the delusions we are living 842 00:38:09,069 --> 00:38:07,069 under today but that new better subset 843 00:38:10,599 --> 00:38:09,079 is still not the whole game because 844 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:10,609 there is a lot about this game that we 845 00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:12,170 cannot put in language and cannot 846 00:38:16,780 --> 00:38:13,730 communicate we have to experience it 847 00:38:19,510 --> 00:38:16,790 ourselves and that's where I think 848 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:19,520 religious myths come in they bring us 849 00:38:25,150 --> 00:38:22,130 beyond the best cultural narrative which 850 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:25,160 which we could come up today by pointing 851 00:38:29,620 --> 00:38:27,410 at something creating the conditions for 852 00:38:32,410 --> 00:38:29,630 a personal experience of something 853 00:38:34,569 --> 00:38:32,420 beyond space-time and linear logic and 854 00:38:37,660 --> 00:38:34,579 that's where we can find meaning and 855 00:38:41,500 --> 00:38:37,670 transcendence and that's where we can 856 00:38:44,289 --> 00:38:41,510 find meaning and transcendence great 857 00:38:46,900 --> 00:38:44,299 point I love the idea and I love the the 858 00:38:48,849 --> 00:38:46,910 concept behind it where do you want to 859 00:38:51,069 --> 00:38:48,859 where do you see yourself going with 860 00:38:54,309 --> 00:38:51,079 this book immediately where is it 861 00:38:58,299 --> 00:38:54,319 already leading you in terms of future 862 00:39:02,470 --> 00:38:58,309 jumping-off points for your work that's 863 00:39:05,410 --> 00:39:02,480 difficult to say right now I finished 864 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:05,420 this book last year several months ago 865 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:08,530 it's been in production for a while I 866 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:11,690 think going forward I will focus more 867 00:39:18,490 --> 00:39:15,130 again on establishing a rock solid 868 00:39:20,620 --> 00:39:18,500 robust intellectual alternative to 869 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:20,630 physicalism I've been working with some 870 00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:23,690 professional philosophers now and going 871 00:39:27,069 --> 00:39:25,040 more in that direction maybe even 872 00:39:32,140 --> 00:39:27,079 closing up more to to academia than I 873 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:32,150 was before this book doesn't that 874 00:39:38,829 --> 00:39:33,890 doesn't that stand a little bit in 875 00:39:42,339 --> 00:39:38,839 contrast with the trends Nate yes it 876 00:39:44,140 --> 00:39:42,349 does it's I think I'm I'm looking for 877 00:39:46,059 --> 00:39:44,150 balance in my own mind and my work 878 00:39:48,309 --> 00:39:46,069 reflects my search for balance 879 00:39:50,589 --> 00:39:48,319 so I'm oscillating between two things 880 00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:50,599 because I think it's very important that 881 00:39:55,859 --> 00:39:52,640 we don't throw the baby of transcendence 882 00:39:58,660 --> 00:39:55,869 and meaning together with the bathwater 883 00:40:01,270 --> 00:39:58,670 and at the same time I think we should 884 00:40:02,740 --> 00:40:01,280 really really reform our code 885 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:02,750 your narrative because the one we have 886 00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:04,970 now is a complete disaster 887 00:40:08,650 --> 00:40:07,250 not only because it's depressive there 888 00:40:12,550 --> 00:40:08,660 are more depressive things because it's 889 00:40:15,250 --> 00:40:12,560 just wrong and and and and provably so 890 00:40:16,870 --> 00:40:15,260 it's just a bad cultural narrative so 891 00:40:19,090 --> 00:40:16,880 I'm I'm oscillating between these two 892 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:19,100 things it's possible that my personal 893 00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:22,010 development independent of my work well 894 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:23,510 it's not only possible that's what's 895 00:40:27,670 --> 00:40:26,090 happening Alex let me be very clear with 896 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:27,680 you at the same time that I'm working on 897 00:40:31,750 --> 00:40:30,410 a rock solid robust intellect or 898 00:40:34,180 --> 00:40:31,760 articulation of a different cultural 899 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:34,190 narrative at the same time my own 900 00:40:40,330 --> 00:40:37,570 personal life my own emotional life is 901 00:40:44,140 --> 00:40:40,340 bringing me to two very serious 902 00:40:46,810 --> 00:40:44,150 crossroads to a point and I even posted 903 00:40:48,430 --> 00:40:46,820 it on Facebook the other day and I think 904 00:40:51,580 --> 00:40:48,440 a lot of people found it cryptic 905 00:40:52,750 --> 00:40:51,590 a point where I think it's either a 906 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:52,760 breakdown or a breakthrough 907 00:41:00,310 --> 00:40:56,810 yeah if you know what I mean you know I 908 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:00,320 I can I can relate to you in what you're 909 00:41:03,220 --> 00:41:01,970 saying and I feel kind of the same way 910 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:03,230 and I haven't said any of this about 911 00:41:08,260 --> 00:41:06,290 sceptical but I feel kind of the same 912 00:41:12,490 --> 00:41:08,270 way and I come back and I keep seeing 913 00:41:16,060 --> 00:41:12,500 value in pursuing this path of logic and 914 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:16,070 reason but I've been trying to connect 915 00:41:20,950 --> 00:41:18,050 with more and more of a devotional side 916 00:41:22,870 --> 00:41:20,960 and a spiritual side of me and one way 917 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:22,880 I've done that is through music and 918 00:41:27,790 --> 00:41:25,370 through kirtan and there's this one 919 00:41:29,770 --> 00:41:27,800 singer I really like Krishna Dawson I 920 00:41:34,930 --> 00:41:29,780 have a special spiritual connection with 921 00:41:36,220 --> 00:41:34,940 his deceased master neem Karoli Baba for 922 00:41:38,830 --> 00:41:36,230 whatever that means and he has this 923 00:41:39,850 --> 00:41:38,840 beautiful song and and he was Preston 924 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:39,860 said you know where did you come up with 925 00:41:48,330 --> 00:41:41,930 that song and he says well there's this 926 00:41:51,130 --> 00:41:48,340 ancient Indian myth of this man who is 927 00:41:54,700 --> 00:41:51,140 devotional and is singing and is 928 00:41:57,820 --> 00:41:54,710 praising Krishna and he comes across an 929 00:42:00,070 --> 00:41:57,830 old man who is sitting there and he's 930 00:42:02,410 --> 00:42:00,080 teaching Sanskrit to children and he's 931 00:42:04,900 --> 00:42:02,420 very intent on a he's very logic based 932 00:42:06,820 --> 00:42:04,910 and he's very learned and he's highly 933 00:42:11,050 --> 00:42:06,830 respected because he knows this ancient 934 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:11,060 language and he says hey old man you're 935 00:42:17,530 --> 00:42:14,810 you figured it out now you know enough 936 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:17,540 up come on devote yourself devote 937 00:42:24,070 --> 00:42:20,330 yourself to God devote yourself to this 938 00:42:26,410 --> 00:42:24,080 greater consciousness and I always I 939 00:42:28,180 --> 00:42:26,420 think about that lately and I think 940 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:28,190 about I don't want to be that old man I 941 00:42:32,620 --> 00:42:30,410 don't want to be that old man on my 942 00:42:35,530 --> 00:42:32,630 knees teaching Sanskrit when I know it's 943 00:42:38,380 --> 00:42:35,540 not really about the Sanskrit 944 00:42:41,130 --> 00:42:38,390 you know what I mean yeah it's 945 00:42:45,340 --> 00:42:41,140 ultimately it's not about any narrative 946 00:42:47,260 --> 00:42:45,350 ultimately it's about a realization that 947 00:42:49,570 --> 00:42:47,270 isn't automated ultimately it's not 948 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:49,580 about explaining anything it arrived in 949 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:51,530 at an explanation is arriving at a 950 00:42:55,810 --> 00:42:53,570 narrative and the thing we are talking 951 00:42:58,420 --> 00:42:55,820 about here isn't a narrative it's 952 00:43:02,410 --> 00:42:58,430 something that you experience it's it's 953 00:43:04,210 --> 00:43:02,420 a form of being at the same time and to 954 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:04,220 link that back to the fight on the 955 00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:05,570 cultural narrative because otherwise we 956 00:43:09,490 --> 00:43:07,730 might conclude why fight a cultural 957 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:09,500 battle forget the cultural narrative 958 00:43:13,540 --> 00:43:10,850 it's all about your own experience 959 00:43:16,290 --> 00:43:13,550 anyway and I think the cultural 960 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:16,300 narrative can be either conducive or 961 00:43:20,410 --> 00:43:18,770 disruptive to the direct personal 962 00:43:23,530 --> 00:43:20,420 experience and the one we have right now 963 00:43:25,090 --> 00:43:23,540 is extraordinarily disruptive to the 964 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:25,100 point that it renders it nearly 965 00:43:29,650 --> 00:43:27,530 impossible for anyone educated under 966 00:43:32,710 --> 00:43:29,660 this cultural narrative to have the 967 00:43:35,260 --> 00:43:32,720 openness there is a precondition for the 968 00:43:36,790 --> 00:43:35,270 experience a precondition for that form 969 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:36,800 of being so I think there's tremendous 970 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:38,930 value in fighting the good fight and 971 00:43:43,390 --> 00:43:40,970 changing the cultural narrative but it 972 00:43:45,630 --> 00:43:43,400 isn't the ultimate goal it's just a 973 00:43:48,670 --> 00:43:45,640 precondition and my personal life 974 00:43:49,780 --> 00:43:48,680 because you see I no longer at least I 975 00:43:52,690 --> 00:43:49,790 have something positive to say about 976 00:43:55,090 --> 00:43:52,700 myself I I'm a neurotic mess but at 977 00:43:56,650 --> 00:43:55,100 least I no longer suffer from the 978 00:43:58,240 --> 00:43:56,660 limitations of the cultural narrative 979 00:44:01,390 --> 00:43:58,250 because in my mind it's a don't deal I 980 00:44:03,430 --> 00:44:01,400 mean this is ridiculous and and I'm I'm 981 00:44:05,590 --> 00:44:03,440 fighting a cultural battle but I'm not 982 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:05,600 trying to convince myself anymore in my 983 00:44:14,290 --> 00:44:10,130 mind it's a done deal and I think my my 984 00:44:15,970 --> 00:44:14,300 personal emotional development now going 985 00:44:17,230 --> 00:44:15,980 forward it's not something that is under 986 00:44:18,970 --> 00:44:17,240 the control of the ego it's not 987 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:18,980 something you choose to be like this or 988 00:44:22,810 --> 00:44:20,450 that it just happens to you 989 00:44:24,730 --> 00:44:22,820 life leaves itself through you you are 990 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:24,740 being leaved by something by a power 991 00:44:27,970 --> 00:44:27,050 beyond your ego and that is bringing me 992 00:44:30,849 --> 00:44:27,980 in a direction that 993 00:44:33,310 --> 00:44:30,859 is beyond every narrative and I don't 994 00:44:35,620 --> 00:44:33,320 know whether that will be ever reflected 995 00:44:37,510 --> 00:44:35,630 in my work and in parallel I'm doing 996 00:44:38,859 --> 00:44:37,520 work there would be a book after this 997 00:44:41,980 --> 00:44:38,869 one for sure there will be many things 998 00:44:44,410 --> 00:44:41,990 after this book but whether the core of 999 00:44:47,740 --> 00:44:44,420 my personal experience right now is ever 1000 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:47,750 going to make it to written word I don't 1001 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:49,970 know it's possibility to never be the 1002 00:44:55,420 --> 00:44:53,090 case well I I doubt that because I think 1003 00:44:57,910 --> 00:44:55,430 you've already done a beautiful job 1004 00:45:01,870 --> 00:44:57,920 just right there and in this book more 1005 00:45:04,510 --> 00:45:01,880 than allegory of not just talking the 1006 00:45:08,290 --> 00:45:04,520 talk but really walking the walk about 1007 00:45:11,230 --> 00:45:08,300 what it means to look beyond and to 1008 00:45:14,380 --> 00:45:11,240 consider the larger and the greater 1009 00:45:18,070 --> 00:45:14,390 which is I think what this book is all 1010 00:45:21,910 --> 00:45:18,080 about and yet staying anchored with what 1011 00:45:24,940 --> 00:45:21,920 we what we know to be true as well about 1012 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:24,950 our consensus reality so I think it's 1013 00:45:29,770 --> 00:45:27,290 just terrific I'm always super inspired 1014 00:45:33,010 --> 00:45:29,780 by talking to you Bernardo in the brave 1015 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:33,020 way that you tackle these topics this 1016 00:45:36,820 --> 00:45:35,210 book is sure sure to be one that you're 1017 00:45:38,859 --> 00:45:36,830 going to want to pick up more than 1018 00:45:40,540 --> 00:45:38,869 allegory it should be out right about 1019 00:45:42,550 --> 00:45:40,550 the time when you're listening to this 1020 00:45:44,500 --> 00:45:42,560 show so check it out 1021 00:45:46,330 --> 00:45:44,510 more than allegory on religious myth 1022 00:45:49,060 --> 00:45:46,340 truth and belief 1023 00:45:49,630 --> 00:45:49,070 dr. Bernardo Kastrup thanks so much for 1024 00:45:56,510 --> 00:45:49,640 joining me 1025 00:46:01,440 --> 00:45:58,800 no and I say and you said a really 1026 00:46:03,540 --> 00:46:01,450 really good and important point and I 1027 00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:03,550 hope this gets emphasized in the show 1028 00:46:11,190 --> 00:46:08,400 too and that you know kind of uh 1029 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:11,200 consolidating our victories is is good 1030 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:13,810 too you know and for you to say you know 1031 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:15,850 what the falsification of materialism 1032 00:46:23,130 --> 00:46:19,090 that we can own and say you know what 1033 00:46:25,860 --> 00:46:23,140 that has propelled me forward that has 1034 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:25,870 allowed me to kind of take a step 1035 00:46:31,230 --> 00:46:28,690 through the fog and kind of clear a path 1036 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:31,240 ya know where that path leads but it is 1037 00:46:36,990 --> 00:46:34,930 a step and it sure as absolution it 1038 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:37,000 opens the gate it opens the doors it 1039 00:46:43,350 --> 00:46:39,610 opens so many possibilities that we 1040 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:43,360 assume are not there and I think that is 1041 00:46:47,490 --> 00:46:45,490 that is the critical thing about getting 1042 00:46:49,230 --> 00:46:47,500 rid of materialism and having a cultural 1043 00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:49,240 narrative that we can defend very 1044 00:46:54,900 --> 00:46:52,450 robustly empirically logically that 1045 00:46:56,670 --> 00:46:54,910 keeps those doors open for me personally 1046 00:46:59,640 --> 00:46:56,680 in my own journey 1047 00:47:05,040 --> 00:46:59,650 Alex I could only make the steps I've 1048 00:47:07,740 --> 00:47:05,050 made after this self created barrier 1049 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:07,750 this this notion at physicalism is the 1050 00:47:13,140 --> 00:47:10,090 only game in town after I took down that 1051 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:13,150 barrier from me personally only then I 1052 00:47:19,050 --> 00:47:16,210 could go forward and whole universes 1053 00:47:21,180 --> 00:47:19,060 opened up right after that not narrative 1054 00:47:24,030 --> 00:47:21,190 universes only but really concrete 1055 00:47:25,980 --> 00:47:24,040 experiential universes and that that has 1056 00:47:29,430 --> 00:47:25,990 been critical and I think we we own it 1057 00:47:31,710 --> 00:47:29,440 to the culture to our culture to fight 1058 00:47:34,740 --> 00:47:31,720 this and and and consolidate this gang 1059 00:47:37,380 --> 00:47:34,750 and then as you put it and and the rest 1060 00:47:39,390 --> 00:47:37,390 is the unfolding of nature the rest will 1061 00:47:41,460 --> 00:47:39,400 happen by itself because it isn't a 1062 00:47:43,950 --> 00:47:41,470 narrative that puts a brake on us it's 1063 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:43,960 putting a brake on nature if you remove 1064 00:47:48,060 --> 00:47:46,090 that with a better narrative the rest 1065 00:47:50,370 --> 00:47:48,070 unfolds by itself it's it's the flow of 1066 00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:50,380 nature you can't stop it it isn't 1067 00:47:54,810 --> 00:47:52,510 Pleasant it can be very hard for me it 1068 00:47:57,780 --> 00:47:54,820 it's horrible sometimes there are days I 1069 00:48:00,290 --> 00:47:57,790 think I've had I I would prefer to 1070 00:48:02,970 --> 00:48:00,300 go back in time and Dean the illusion